Curse

Fall Of Sudden · Jun 05, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Awhile ago when ETON really first came out I was doing the quest to get Livia when i accidently ran into Morbin (the warrior boss T-Rex). First time meeting him and he dropped Morbin's Blade. Since then I been wondering how many people have the sword for I have never seen it on some elses heroes or character. Nor have i seen it being sold. But I have heard of people farming Morbin to get the sword. The Stats of the sword are not bad for a Adreline warrior but bad for a warrior that uses lots of energy. Also the skill doesnt look overly bad. Just curious to see how many people actually have that sword.

Picuso · Jun 05, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fall Of Sudden

The Stats of the sword are bad for a warrior

Fixed for you

MisterB · Jun 05, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I had to look it up on wiki. That is a terrible weapon. I'd feel bad putting it on a hero.

edit: It's Mobrin, by the way.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 05, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fall Of Sudden

The Stats of the sword are not bad for a Adreline warrior but bad for a warrior that uses lots of energy. Also the skill doesnt look overly bad.

Just going to clarify this.

*+15%/-5 mods are bad because it's like a 15^50% except with an energy penalty. If you're below 50% health, you're either about to be healed or about to die.
*Sundering produces crap damage when compared to vampiric ON SWORDS due to the low max damage.
*+30 health is fine.

Paul Dawg · Jun 06, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

I'm wondering why you keep repeating the misconception that sundering doesn't work well on swords because of the low max damage. Sundering is affected by AVERAGE damage, not max damage. Critical hits are affected by max damage. Somewhere someone got confused.

I think vamp works better on swords than sundering, but the reason has nothing to do with max damage.

Lux Aeterna · Jun 06, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Now we can debate about whether the skin is good or bad...

I'm sure if you really want this you could get it for 4k if you spent some time shopping, or better yet buy a gold with the same skin and mod it correctly (vamp would do more damage, and a 15 over 50 inscription).

Chthon · Jun 06, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I'm wondering why you keep repeating the misconception that sundering doesn't work well on swords because of the low max damage. Sundering is affected by AVERAGE damage, not max damage. Critical hits are affected by max damage. Somewhere someone got confused.

I think vamp works better on swords than sundering, but the reason has nothing to do with max damage.

All of the weapons in GW have a low enough average that sundering doesn't approach vampiric. The one place where sundering can have an edge is if you can get a decent percentage of sunder-crits. And the worthwhileness of sunder-crits **does** depend on the weapon's max damage rather than its average. That said, sunder-crits are far too rare to rely on outside of assassin builds the focus on generating crits. In sum, I'd only consider a sundering weapon if both (a) I'm using an assassin, and (b) the weapon has a high max damage. Since swords have a low max, I'd rather not have sundering, even on an assassin.

That leaves us with:
sundering = bad, for reasons stated above
15/-5e = bad, since 15^50 give the same bonus with no penalty
30hp = not bad, but worse than 5AL for PvE purposes.

All in all, it's a terrible sword.

Winterclaw · Jun 06, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Now we can debate about whether the skin is good or bad...

That's the first reason I'm not interested in it, and that even before I looked at the stats. Anyways, Marty's post pretty much sums up why the sword has problems from a gameplay perspective

I think this leads to a larger problem with GW: what on Earth were the devs thinking by putting green weapons with bad stats into the game?

Neo Atomisk · Jun 07, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

cool skin, but the skin isn't unique and the mods are bad. :/

Paul Dawg · Jun 07, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I've never understood that either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I think this leads to a larger problem with GW: what on Earth were the devs thinking by putting green weapons with bad stats into the game?

Paul Dawg · Jun 07, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Let's look at what you're saying a little more carefully, since you'll see, even after applying the math, that for non-sins (such as, e.g., WARRIORS), max damage has absolutely no effect on the value of a sunder mod. Let's compare warriors using swords and axes, since they both attack at the same speed and the damage spreads of each weapon make this a good example of the difference between average damage and crit-hit damage. (Let's assume there are no sin modifiers to critical hits, and let's assume that the foe is the same level as the attacker-- just to make the math simpler.)

Damage for swords is 15-22; damage for axes is 6-28. Swords have higher average damage; axes have higher max damage (and thus higher crit-hit damage too). I'll use a 14% chance for critical hits, since it's reasonable that a sword or axe war has 14 in his weapon skill. That means average damage for swords, including critical hits but not considering a sundering mod, is going to be 20.27 per hit. That's (((15+22)/2)*0.86) + ((22*root2)*0.14). Average damage for axes is slightly lower: 20.16 per hit (applying the same formula).

Now we have to consider the boost that the sundering mod causes. That's going to depend on the armor of the foe, so let's err on the side of giving the sundering mod a larger boost (just to prove my point), and assume the enemy has 100 AL. So the sundering mod will cause 20 armor penetration 20% of the time. That's the equivalent of another boost of root 2. If your theory is correct, the sunder mod will have to give axes more of a boost than swords (because axes give more crit-hit damage). And ... it doesn't.

First, swords. Damage will be the total of the following:

((15+22)/2)*0.86*0.8 = 12.728, that's normal hits, no crit-hit, no sundering
((15+22)/2)*root2*0.86*0.2 = 4.499, that's normal hits, sundering but no crit
(22*root2)*0.14*0.8 = 3.484, that's crit hits, but no sundering
(22*root2)*root2*0.14*0.2 = 1.232, that's sunder crit-hits (see how small?)

Total is ... 21.943 (as compared with 20.27 without the sunder mod).

Next, axes. Damage will be the total of the following:

((6+28)/2)*0.86*0.8 = 11.696
((6+28)/2)*root2*0.86*0.2 = 4.135
(28*root2)*0.14*0.8 = 4.434
(28*root2)*root2*0.14*0.2 = 1.568

Total is ... 21.833 (as compared with 20.16 without the sunder mod). Still exactly 0.11 less than swords.

Upshot? Max damage has absolutely no effect on the sundering mod's boost to damage.

As I've been saying all along.

Check my math--I'm right.

Edited to add: Marty's Warrior guide really has to be updated to reflect the fact that max damage does not affect a warrior's decision of whether or not to use a sundering mod, and I hope this misconception goes away once and for all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

All of the weapons in GW have a low enough average that sundering doesn't approach vampiric. The one place where sundering can have an edge is if you can get a decent percentage of sunder-crits. And the worthwhileness of sunder-crits **does** depend on the weapon's max damage rather than its average.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 07, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

The thing is that sword is primarily used for pressure.

Axe's are used for spiking, therefore Vampiric makes more sense on a sword (though I run it on axes too).

Paul Dawg · Jun 07, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

We all agree that vampiric makes more sense on a sword. That's not the issue.

Chthon · Jun 07, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Upshot? Max damage has absolutely no effect on the sundering mod's boost to damage.

As I've been saying all along.

Check my math--I'm right.

You're wrong. Try the same calculations again with 50% crit and 100% crit. (Not that those are numbers a warrior could ever achieve... That's why I said I'd only bring sundering on an assassin...)

[edit: To save you the pain, try to think about it this way. Your crit chance modifies your average damage. (At 100% crit, your average **is** your max.) How large the change to your average is depends on your max. As you see it, the benefit from sundering depends on average; and, as I am pointing out, average, in turn, depends on max because of crits; thus the benefit from sundering depends on max.]

Paul Dawg · Jun 08, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I said "non-sins." This is a warrior board, and for warriors, I've demonstrated that the max damage of a weapon does not affect the bonus of a sundering mod. Obviously, if you're talking about 100% crit-hit chance, max damage is going to matter more than average damage, because max damage is the only thing that will matter at all. You haven't proven anything there.

Put it this way: against foes with 100 AL, a sundering mod is going to add 8.28% to your damage per hit REGARDLESS of your weapon's max damage or average damage. You're overestimating the benefit of a sundering mod on high-max-damage weapons even for those crit-hit sin machines you're talking about. Let's do the same thing with a sin who has 14 in his weapon ability and a stable 50% chance to crit-hit (since 100% is ridiculous), and let's compare daggers and axes, since everyone says daggers are a perfect example of a weapon that doesn't benefit from a sundering mod.

With daggers without a sundering mod, the average damage per hit for that sin is going to be 18.019 (50% normal damage of 12, 50% crit-hit damage of 24.038), and since a sin double-strikes 30% of the time at 14 Dagger Mastery, you can multiply that figure by 1.3, for a total of 23.425. With an axe without a sundering mod, the average damage per hit is going to be 28.296, or 4.871 more. Now let's see what the sundering mod does.

Daggers:

Regular hit, no crit, no sundering: 4.800
Regular hit, no crit, yes sundering: 1.700
Crit hit, no sundering: 9.615
Crit hit, yes sundering: 3.400

Subtotal = 19.515, and multiplied by 1.3, your total comes to 25.370.

Axes:

Regular hit, no crit, no sundering: 6.800
Regular hit, no crit, yes sundering: 2.404
Crit hit, no sundering: 15.837
Crit hit, yes sundering: 5.600

Total = 30.641, or 5.271 more.

That's a difference of 8.2% (5.271/4.871 = 1.0821). Sure, the sundering mod benefits the axe more than the daggers, but not ridiculously more. Remember that the average damage of axes is quite a bit larger than that of daggers to begin with. And this example is for a hypothetical sin with a constant 50% crit-hit chance. In reality, you're not going to be able to maintain that rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You're wrong. Try the same calculations again with 50% crit and 100% crit. (Not that those are numbers a warrior could ever achieve... That's why I said I'd only bring sundering on an assassin...)

[edit: To save you the pain, try to think about it this way. Your crit chance modifies your average damage. (At 100% crit, your average **is** your max.) How large the change to your average is depends on your max. As you see it, the benefit from sundering depends on average; and, as I am pointing out, average, in turn, depends on max because of crits; thus the benefit from sundering depends on max.]

Chthon · Jun 08, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Sure, the sundering mod benefits the axe more than the daggers, but not ridiculously more.

Hey, I never said that sundering was great, merely that you were wrong when you said that the max damage doesn't affect how large a benefit sundering gives. It does, and your own figures show it. While I agree 100% that you need a huge chance to crit for it to make a very significant difference, there is nonetheless a difference of some size with anything over 0% chance to crit.

Also, we need to keep in mind the big picture: When does the damage boost from sundering exceed the boost from vampiric? Not very often -- basically sins with high-max-damage weapons (read "scythe"). I don't dispute that sundering on a warrior is bad all around.

Paul Dawg · Jun 08, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Yeah, one thing we agree on is that sundering just doesn't do enough damage for wars to be worthwhile, and I can't understand why sundering sword mods sell for so much money (4-6k, usually).

As for sundering vs. vampiric on a scythe: conventional wisdom to the contrary, vampiric is clearly better on a scythe too, and even for crit-hit sins. Disregarding the health gain from the vamp mod (which is not insubstantial), you get +5 armor-ignoring damage per hit. Against 100 AL (which we've been using for all our calculations), that's the equivalent of +10 extra base damage per hit. (Base damage is calculated at 60 AL.) Can a sundering mod match that? No. The damage for that hypothetical 50% crit-hit sin using a scythe is 41.487 per hit without a sundering mod. With a sundering mod, it's 44.922. That's nowhere near as much extra damage as you'd get with vampiric. Or to put it more starkly: even if you were getting 100% critical hits with your scythe, you STILL wouldn't cause more extra damage with a sundering mod than with a vamp mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Hey, I never said that sundering was great, merely that you were wrong when you said that the max damage doesn't affect how large a benefit sundering gives. It does, and your own figures show it. While I agree 100% that you need a huge chance to crit for it to make a very significant difference, there is nonetheless a difference of some size with anything over 0% chance to crit.

Also, we need to keep in mind the big picture: When does the damage boost from sundering exceed the boost from vampiric? Not very often -- basically sins with high-max-damage weapons (read "scythe"). I don't dispute that sundering on a warrior is bad all around.

qvtkc · Jun 08, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Seriously.

I can't believe that people played this for 4 years and still do DPS calculations.

The value of a sundering mod isn't DPS. If you want DPS, use vampiric. The value of a sundering mod is in huge spikes, which you get when you hit a sundering critical. This is valuable not because it gives DPS but because you can achieve a kill before the target is healed.

That stated, it should be obvious that sundering mods are only worthwhile on weapons with high maximum damage. If you use sundering in an attempt to achieve high average damage, you are mislead.

Paul Dawg, your math is correct, but irrelevant.

Paul Dawg · Jun 08, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

So please explain to me the value of a sundering mod in causing a "huge spike" if you can't predict when you're going to get the sundering bonus.

It doesn't even give you a "huge spike" when it DOES kick in, let alone when it doesn't. I don't consider an added factor of root 2 (under the BEST of circumstances) a "huge spike." If you want "huge spikes," go for deep wound.

Please explain to me, for that matter, the value of sunder crit-hits to warriors, who can hardly achieve critical hits more than ~15% of the time. That means you're looking at what, 3% sunder crit-hits? Huge spike!

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Seriously.

I can't believe that people played this for 4 years and still do DPS calculations.

The value of a sundering mod isn't DPS. If you want DPS, use vampiric. The value of a sundering mod is in huge spikes, which you get when you hit a sundering critical. This is valuable not because it gives DPS but because you can achieve a kill before the target is healed.

That stated, it should be obvious that sundering mods are only worthwhile on weapons with high maximum damage. If you use sundering in an attempt to achieve high average damage, you are mislead.

Paul Dawg, your math is correct, but irrelevant.

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 08, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Paul Dawg, your math is correct, but irrelevant.

DPS wise, Vampiric will never be beat (except by elemental to dodge shields/warrior armor). In PvP (which these people must be talking about because nothing else makes sense), even unreliable sunder-crits are helpful because they can allow to drop targets that otherwise would've been saved. You can't just roll through people, you have to score kills to dish out each bit of death penalty and cause wipes. This isn't always possible through straight out DPS so you take Sundering Axes to get some extra oomph on random spikes.

If you're using a sword warrior, your spike is already lackluster and a sunder proc isn't going to amount to much. You're probably playing pressure if you brought a cripslash/hundred blades anyways.

Also, they put bad greens in the game because there's only like 3 combinations of good mods for swords (Vamp Elemental and Zealous). It'd be kind of boring if you just got the same crap over and over. Also, certain weapons have niche usages, I like a shelter spear for vs Paraspike for example.